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After reading each others reviews the previous night, SamoaPhoenix and I finally sat down today to discuss the second book in Mary Stewart's Merlin Trilogy.
Warning for Spoilers
Storyteller Knight
Now we can get on to our discussion of the Hollow Hills
Which I keep wanting to called the Hollowed Hills because I fail
SamoaPhoenix
Yes
Which in hindsight is not a particularly good name for this book
The Hollow Hills don't actually come into it much
Yes
Which in hindsight is not a particularly good name for this book
The Hollow Hills don't actually come into it much
Storyteller Knight
No, it should have been like, Chapel in the Green or something like that
But then maybe people would have mistaken it for a Gawain book
No, it should have been like, Chapel in the Green or something like that
But then maybe people would have mistaken it for a Gawain book
SamoaPhoenix
Maybe
I was sort of fooled by that at first
I got sort of excited, and then I was like wait, it can't be the same place, and Gawain doesn't exist yet anyway
Maybe
I was sort of fooled by that at first
I got sort of excited, and then I was like wait, it can't be the same place, and Gawain doesn't exist yet anyway
Storyteller Knight
and if I remember correctly, Gawain kinda sucks
and if I remember correctly, Gawain kinda sucks
SamoaPhoenix
Grrr. She took the Malory version then
Grrr. She took the Malory version then
Storyteller Knight
We'll see how that goes when we get to Wicked Day
Let's talk about this book for right now and the endless tale of Merlin traveling
We'll see how that goes when we get to Wicked Day
Let's talk about this book for right now and the endless tale of Merlin traveling
SamoaPhoenix
See, i didn't find that quite so offensive as you did. I went into it not expecting much and was pleasantly surprised by how much better the pacing seemed. I think you were expecting to see more of Arthur in this book and the lack of his presence frustrated you the further into the book you got
See, i didn't find that quite so offensive as you did. I went into it not expecting much and was pleasantly surprised by how much better the pacing seemed. I think you were expecting to see more of Arthur in this book and the lack of his presence frustrated you the further into the book you got
Storyteller Knight
Probably. I mean, we've talked about how boring I find the prospect of a Merlin story for this very reason-- there is too great of a chance that his books revolve around him wandering around endlessly
Probably. I mean, we've talked about how boring I find the prospect of a Merlin story for this very reason-- there is too great of a chance that his books revolve around him wandering around endlessly
SamoaPhoenix
I was actually relieved that there was as little discussion as there was of his time in the middle east. I was bracing myself (as you see in my review) for a rundown of his daily routine in every place he visited
I was actually relieved that there was as little discussion as there was of his time in the middle east. I was bracing myself (as you see in my review) for a rundown of his daily routine in every place he visited
Storyteller Knight
I was too, but at the same time ten pages was too much
I think my favorite moment was when he decided to go to Segontium to fetch the sword and I was like 'Oh, god! Here we go again!' and on the next page he was in Segontium. It was like 'Hurray! We skipped the useless traveling!'
I think my favorite moment was when he decided to go to Segontium to fetch the sword and I was like 'Oh, god! Here we go again!' and on the next page he was in Segontium. It was like 'Hurray! We skipped the useless traveling!'
SamoaPhoenix
And what is up with him and his servants!
He keeps picking these people up, and they're all fanatically loyal to him for no reason that I can see
He doesn't save their lives, and half the time doesn't even pay them
And what is up with him and his servants!
He keeps picking these people up, and they're all fanatically loyal to him for no reason that I can see
He doesn't save their lives, and half the time doesn't even pay them
Storyteller Knight
When he suggested that Ralf be his servant I was like 'Don't do it Ralf! Don't do it! You'll be sorry!'
But they all survived this book, so yay?
When he suggested that Ralf be his servant I was like 'Don't do it Ralf! Don't do it! You'll be sorry!'
But they all survived this book, so yay?
SamoaPhoenix
I was very pleased that he was actually making an effort to look out for them and try to give them a choice about whether to follow him around
In my opinion, it make him more likeable and more mature-seeming, that he's realized that his actions actually--gasp--have personal consequences
I was very pleased that he was actually making an effort to look out for them and try to give them a choice about whether to follow him around
In my opinion, it make him more likeable and more mature-seeming, that he's realized that his actions actually--gasp--have personal consequences
Storyteller Knight
When I first started reading I did have a couple moments were I had to look around to make sure this actually was a continuation of the Crystal Cave because I was surprised by Merlin's remorse and sudden growing of a conscious
But that feeling actually didn't last very long and I kinda felt that Stewart was falling onto the same old plot tricks from the last book, but they didn't hold up as well without Merlin's arrogance
When I first started reading I did have a couple moments were I had to look around to make sure this actually was a continuation of the Crystal Cave because I was surprised by Merlin's remorse and sudden growing of a conscious
But that feeling actually didn't last very long and I kinda felt that Stewart was falling onto the same old plot tricks from the last book, but they didn't hold up as well without Merlin's arrogance
SamoaPhoenix
You were annoyed with how lucky he was--everything still worked out
I preferred a slightly uncertain merlin. He's feeling his way around without direct guidance from god like the rest of us
You were annoyed with how lucky he was--everything still worked out
I preferred a slightly uncertain merlin. He's feeling his way around without direct guidance from god like the rest of us
Storyteller Knight
I would have liked that more if shit hadn't gone his way every single time. It was like 'Confli-- nope, sucker!'
I would have liked that more if shit hadn't gone his way every single time. It was like 'Confli-- nope, sucker!'
SamoaPhoenix
The whole thing with Uther agreeing so readily for Merlin to take charge of Arthur did feel weird
The whole thing with Uther agreeing so readily for Merlin to take charge of Arthur did feel weird
Storyteller Knight
When he was captured by the hill people on his way to Galava to finally meet up with Arthur, I kinda rolled my eyes and wondered how many pages of this I would have to endure before they let him go and promised to be his friend.
When he was captured by the hill people on his way to Galava to finally meet up with Arthur, I kinda rolled my eyes and wondered how many pages of this I would have to endure before they let him go and promised to be his friend.
SamoaPhoenix
Merlin had this whole thing set up with Ygraine, and then it's like, no, we're going to do this with Uther's permission anyway
Merlin had this whole thing set up with Ygraine, and then it's like, no, we're going to do this with Uther's permission anyway
Storyteller Knight
Well, it was that, it was the bandits on the way to Merlin's nurse who almost found them but then were turned away by the deer, it was Arthur and Ralf getting attacked on the way to Galava, but those were only bandits so don't worry, it was Merlin coming back to rumors Uther was dying only to find that he was impotent, it was the hill people liking him more than the soldiers... every time there was a chance at actual conflict it just collapsed into what Merlin needed.
Well, it was that, it was the bandits on the way to Merlin's nurse who almost found them but then were turned away by the deer, it was Arthur and Ralf getting attacked on the way to Galava, but those were only bandits so don't worry, it was Merlin coming back to rumors Uther was dying only to find that he was impotent, it was the hill people liking him more than the soldiers... every time there was a chance at actual conflict it just collapsed into what Merlin needed.
SamoaPhoenix
It's like Stewart was writing this and never went back to see if it all fit together coherently or if she repeated the same plotline again and again
I still liked it, overall, and thought it was an improvement over Crystal Cave because it wasn't long drawn-out sections where literally nothing happens. There was action and boring parts spaced out relatively evenly, even if the results of the tension were the same every time
It's like Stewart was writing this and never went back to see if it all fit together coherently or if she repeated the same plotline again and again
I still liked it, overall, and thought it was an improvement over Crystal Cave because it wasn't long drawn-out sections where literally nothing happens. There was action and boring parts spaced out relatively evenly, even if the results of the tension were the same every time
Storyteller Knight
I found the first 250 pages to be one long, boring part. But then we all knew that.
I loved Arthur though.
I found the first 250 pages to be one long, boring part. But then we all knew that.
I loved Arthur though.
SamoaPhoenix
Can I just say I think Uther is hysterically funny?
He's not intending to be
Can I just say I think Uther is hysterically funny?
He's not intending to be
Storyteller Knight
You can say whatever you want
You can say whatever you want
SamoaPhoenix
But reading him so soon after we had that discussion of Updike protagonists...he pretty much personifies them
But reading him so soon after we had that discussion of Updike protagonists...he pretty much personifies them
Storyteller Knight
I got so pissed at Merlin during that scene where Uther admits his impotency. I knew right away Uther was having dick troubles and I was kinda mad that it took Merlin so long to figure it out.
I got so pissed at Merlin during that scene where Uther admits his impotency. I knew right away Uther was having dick troubles and I was kinda mad that it took Merlin so long to figure it out.
SamoaPhoenix
Merlin has no concept that sex could be important to anyone. I'm surprised it didn't take him longer
Merlin has no concept that sex could be important to anyone. I'm surprised it didn't take him longer
Storyteller Knight
And Merlin was like 'oh gods, oh gods, what's wrong with Uther! What will I do if we have to bring Arthur south now! Oh no, oh no!' and it's like, dude. His dick isn't working. To him this is the end of the world.
And Merlin was like 'oh gods, oh gods, what's wrong with Uther! What will I do if we have to bring Arthur south now! Oh no, oh no!' and it's like, dude. His dick isn't working. To him this is the end of the world.
SamoaPhoenix
Peripherally, he's aware that Uther finds sex very important, but it never occurs to him that that could in fact be the overarching thing in someone's life. Even more important than what happens to the country after he dies
Peripherally, he's aware that Uther finds sex very important, but it never occurs to him that that could in fact be the overarching thing in someone's life. Even more important than what happens to the country after he dies
Storyteller Knight
Merlin just... has issues
Merlin just... has issues
SamoaPhoenix
So i thought their whole relationship was pretty funny. Every time they meet, Uther is all "After you do this one thing for me, we shall never speak again!" and Merlin is like "As my god wills it." And then of course Uther has to whistle Merlin up again to solve some other problem.
So i thought their whole relationship was pretty funny. Every time they meet, Uther is all "After you do this one thing for me, we shall never speak again!" and Merlin is like "As my god wills it." And then of course Uther has to whistle Merlin up again to solve some other problem.
Storyteller Knight
I was kinda mortified that when he died they just left him at the table while they continued to hash out Arthur's kingship.
I was kinda mortified that when he died they just left him at the table while they continued to hash out Arthur's kingship.
SamoaPhoenix
Really? I didn't even notice that
That's gross
Really? I didn't even notice that
That's gross
Storyteller Knight
Yeah. I had this moment where they're in the middle of that heated argument where I was like 'Is Uther... oh, he is.' At the end of the chapter he's finally taken out.
Yeah. I had this moment where they're in the middle of that heated argument where I was like 'Is Uther... oh, he is.' At the end of the chapter he's finally taken out.
SamoaPhoenix
Wow, Stewart did a good job of glossing over that and making it seem unimportant
Wow, Stewart did a good job of glossing over that and making it seem unimportant
Storyteller Knight
On that topic, there was one reference she made that I took to mean the mother of Morgause was the girl Merlin almost slept with in Crystal Cave but you said in your review that Morgause's mother was a noblewoman from the south.
On that topic, there was one reference she made that I took to mean the mother of Morgause was the girl Merlin almost slept with in Crystal Cave but you said in your review that Morgause's mother was a noblewoman from the south.
SamoaPhoenix
Yes, they mentioned Morgause's noble mother a few times. That's why Morgause is important at all. All the rest of Uther's bastards were with peasants (and that girl Merlin almost slept with was a peasant) and were therefore just given money and sent off.
They mention this towards the beginning of Hollow Hills
Yes, they mentioned Morgause's noble mother a few times. That's why Morgause is important at all. All the rest of Uther's bastards were with peasants (and that girl Merlin almost slept with was a peasant) and were therefore just given money and sent off.
They mention this towards the beginning of Hollow Hills
Storyteller Knight
Well, the book actually made it sound like he didn't have any other bastards.
Well, the book actually made it sound like he didn't have any other bastards.
SamoaPhoenix
Later in the book it does. But the first time Morgause is referenced at all, when she's still a toddler, Merlin explains this. It's not too long before he leaves England with Arthur
Later in the book it does. But the first time Morgause is referenced at all, when she's still a toddler, Merlin explains this. It's not too long before he leaves England with Arthur
Storyteller Knight
I was going with that too until Merlin says Morgause resembles the girl he tried to love at the end of the book
I was going with that too until Merlin says Morgause resembles the girl he tried to love at the end of the book
SamoaPhoenix
That's Stewart bashing us over the head with the allusion that she's a dangerous temptress for men, like the girl merlin almost slept with
Like comparing Morgause to that apricot from the beginning of Crystal Cave
She wants us in no doubt that Morgause is evil in every way
That's Stewart bashing us over the head with the allusion that she's a dangerous temptress for men, like the girl merlin almost slept with
Like comparing Morgause to that apricot from the beginning of Crystal Cave
She wants us in no doubt that Morgause is evil in every way
Storyteller Knight
I didn't like that by the way
I didn't like that by the way
SamoaPhoenix
I know. It's completely unfair, but not only is Stewart attempting
to be historically accurate, but she's also a product of her own time period
when women were nothing but background characters
She seems to be going with the medieval writers' thing where women are just evil, and it doesn't have to be explained logically to the audience
And it being from Merlin's perspective makes it worse, because to him, all women are dangerous. If he loses his virginity, he loses all his power
She seems to be going with the medieval writers' thing where women are just evil, and it doesn't have to be explained logically to the audience
And it being from Merlin's perspective makes it worse, because to him, all women are dangerous. If he loses his virginity, he loses all his power
Storyteller Knight
She doesn't seem to have a high opinion of woman-- I don't know if that's Merlin or some of her own views coming through but it raised my hackles.
She doesn't seem to have a high opinion of woman-- I don't know if that's Merlin or some of her own views coming through but it raised my hackles.
SamoaPhoenix
So he's not inclined to view women positively. I don't know whether this makes Stewart a good writer for being able to get that closely into such an anti-woman character, or whether it's her own views and she disliked her own gender. I have no idea.
So he's not inclined to view women positively. I don't know whether this makes Stewart a good writer for being able to get that closely into such an anti-woman character, or whether it's her own views and she disliked her own gender. I have no idea.
Storyteller Knight
It makes me fear for poor Gwen
It makes me fear for poor Gwen
SamoaPhoenix
She's going to be an idiot
Predicting it now
We have the two types of medieval women: the hateful shrews who are evil just to be evil, and the stupid women who live to please men and can't make a decision on their own
Stewart broke the mold a little bit with Merlin's mother, who was neither. Every other woman in her story has followed this pattern, though.
Ygraine showed potential, but ended up slipping into the second category.
She's going to be an idiot
Predicting it now
We have the two types of medieval women: the hateful shrews who are evil just to be evil, and the stupid women who live to please men and can't make a decision on their own
Stewart broke the mold a little bit with Merlin's mother, who was neither. Every other woman in her story has followed this pattern, though.
Ygraine showed potential, but ended up slipping into the second category.
Storyteller Knight
I guess the third archetype would be the holy woman who is unattainable?
I guess the third archetype would be the holy woman who is unattainable?
SamoaPhoenix
Yeah, that makes sense. Merlin's mother fits into that one.
Yeah, that makes sense. Merlin's mother fits into that one.
Storyteller Knight
I think the most fascinating thing about this book was the realization at how much other authors drew from it.
I think the most fascinating thing about this book was the realization at how much other authors drew from it.
SamoaPhoenix
How so?
I had that with Crystal Cave, but not as much with this book
How so?
I had that with Crystal Cave, but not as much with this book
Storyteller Knight
Well, Nancy McKenzie had Arthur's name while he was in hiding be Emrys and Persia Woolley and Diana Paxson had the same story of Arthur's first battle alongside Uther.
Well, Nancy McKenzie had Arthur's name while he was in hiding be Emrys and Persia Woolley and Diana Paxson had the same story of Arthur's first battle alongside Uther.
SamoaPhoenix
I saw a lot of Stewart in T.A. Barron
I saw a lot of Stewart in T.A. Barron
Storyteller Knight
I mean, this is the modern retelling. This is the well that they all come from, it seems.
So, are we excited for the next book?
I mean, this is the modern retelling. This is the well that they all come from, it seems.
So, are we excited for the next book?
SamoaPhoenix
I dunno
I liked this one, and the next one has the potential to be more exciting
Since Arthur is actually, you know, king now
And we might get some more familiar plots
I dunno
I liked this one, and the next one has the potential to be more exciting
Since Arthur is actually, you know, king now
And we might get some more familiar plots
Storyteller Knight
Dear god, if Merlin goes back to his cave and briefs over all the important stuff while going on and on about his cave life I will throw a fit and a half
Dear god, if Merlin goes back to his cave and briefs over all the important stuff while going on and on about his cave life I will throw a fit and a half
SamoaPhoenix 6:38 pm
Or it could be just Merlin sitting around until Viviane/Niniane/whatever shows up and seduces him
Or it could be just Merlin sitting around until Viviane/Niniane/whatever shows up and seduces him
Storyteller Knight 6:38 pm
I hope she plays a major role. And I hope she is awesome.
I hope she plays a major role. And I hope she is awesome.
SamoaPhoenix 6:38 pm
If it is the same name as his mother I am going to probably die
If it is the same name as his mother I am going to probably die
Storyteller Knight 6:39 pm
I'm pretty sure it is, if memory of Wicked Day serves.
I'm pretty sure it is, if memory of Wicked Day serves.
SamoaPhoenix 6:40 pm
Yuck. And being Merlin, he's going to be all "this is it--my downfall. I know I'm going to inevitably have sex with her but I'll have to draw it out as long as possible."
Yuck. And being Merlin, he's going to be all "this is it--my downfall. I know I'm going to inevitably have sex with her but I'll have to draw it out as long as possible."
Storyteller Knight 6:41 pm
Oh, I just checked and I'm wrong, it appears.
Oh, I just checked and I'm wrong, it appears.
SamoaPhoenix 6:41 pm
Oh, good
Oh, good
Storyteller Knight 6:42 pm
We'll see how it goes. I'll know right away if I like the next one or if I loathe it as much as this one.
We'll see how it goes. I'll know right away if I like the next one or if I loathe it as much as this one.
SamoaPhoenix
So what do you think of Morgause suddenly having magic when there has been no actual magic until this point in the series?
So what do you think of Morgause suddenly having magic when there has been no actual magic until this point in the series?
Storyteller Knight
I was confused actually all the way back at the beginning of the book when Merlin was like 'I have lost my power. I can't even call fire anymore, which used to be the easiest of my gifts.' I don't recall him being able to do that, let alone more fancy stuff.
I was confused actually all the way back at the beginning of the book when Merlin was like 'I have lost my power. I can't even call fire anymore, which used to be the easiest of my gifts.' I don't recall him being able to do that, let alone more fancy stuff.
SamoaPhoenix
He mentions at the beginning of Crystal Cave that he's still able to light fire even after the loss of all his other powers. Galapas teaches him how to do it
But it's never mentioned again throughout Crystal Cave
He mentions at the beginning of Crystal Cave that he's still able to light fire even after the loss of all his other powers. Galapas teaches him how to do it
But it's never mentioned again throughout Crystal Cave
Storyteller Knight
Okay, but it still made it sound like he could do a lot more than that magic wise
Okay, but it still made it sound like he could do a lot more than that magic wise
SamoaPhoenix
And it pops up abruptly. Then Morgause suddenly has magic of her own
I really think Stewart was making this up as she went and not bothering or not caring if it matched with what she'd set up before
Because we keep seeing stuff like this that just seems careless at best
And it pops up abruptly. Then Morgause suddenly has magic of her own
I really think Stewart was making this up as she went and not bothering or not caring if it matched with what she'd set up before
Because we keep seeing stuff like this that just seems careless at best
Storyteller Knight
It will be interesting to see Nimue's level of power because Merlin specifically says that women can't learn his gifts-- not just that Morgause can't because she wasn't gifted with it but that women as a whole can't do it.
It will be interesting to see Nimue's level of power because Merlin specifically says that women can't learn his gifts-- not just that Morgause can't because she wasn't gifted with it but that women as a whole can't do it.
SamoaPhoenix
But at the same time, his mother definitely had the Sight, though she stopped using it when she converted to Christianity. It's mentioned several times in Crystal Cave. So what 'powers' is he referring to? The ability to light a fire? Big deal.
But at the same time, his mother definitely had the Sight, though she stopped using it when she converted to Christianity. It's mentioned several times in Crystal Cave. So what 'powers' is he referring to? The ability to light a fire? Big deal.
Maybe he just means women can't be spoken to by his god. Which
makes sense--his god, Myrddin, is very associated with masculine things
Storyteller Knight
Merlin hates women. I'm just going to stick to that.
And he especially hates Morgause because she reminds him of a girl he nearly had sex with who may or may not be her mother.
Merlin hates women. I'm just going to stick to that.
And he especially hates Morgause because she reminds him of a girl he nearly had sex with who may or may not be her mother.
SamoaPhoenix
And apricots
And apricots
Storyteller Knight
That too.
That too.
SamoaPhoenix
Which I can only assume Stewart personally dislikes because I don't see much other reason to pick apricots as the symbol of Ultimate Evil.
And I guess you can't have apple-colored hair
Which I can only assume Stewart personally dislikes because I don't see much other reason to pick apricots as the symbol of Ultimate Evil.
And I guess you can't have apple-colored hair
Storyteller Knight
I just googled 'apricots ultimate evil' and it yielded no useful results
I just googled 'apricots ultimate evil' and it yielded no useful results
SamoaPhoenix
T.A. Barron uses apples--Nimue smells like apple blossoms
(again, borrowing from Stewart but changing it enough to make it his own)
T.A. Barron uses apples--Nimue smells like apple blossoms
(again, borrowing from Stewart but changing it enough to make it his own)
Storyteller Knight 6:58 pm
I mean, I kinda get that cause apples have that history and Arthurian Legends have a history with apples cause Avalon is the isle of apples.
Also, Sir Patrise was poisoned by an apple
I mean, I kinda get that cause apples have that history and Arthurian Legends have a history with apples cause Avalon is the isle of apples.
Also, Sir Patrise was poisoned by an apple
SamoaPhoenix
And, you know, apples and the Garden of Eden. Which isn't actually in the Bible, but somehow it has just become legend that Adam and Eve ate an apple as the original sin.
And, you know, apples and the Garden of Eden. Which isn't actually in the Bible, but somehow it has just become legend that Adam and Eve ate an apple as the original sin.
Storyteller Knight
That's what I meant when I said apples have that history
That's what I meant when I said apples have that history
SamoaPhoenix
Ok
So, who knows why she picked apricots
Ok
So, who knows why she picked apricots
Storyteller Knight
So, between us we have written about 8,000 words on this book. Final thoughts before we wrap up?
So, between us we have written about 8,000 words on this book. Final thoughts before we wrap up?
SamoaPhoenix
This book was not that bad, and I liked it better than Crystal Cave, which for the most part was downright dull. Not sure I'm looking forward to the next one, because it could either be really interesting or Merlin puttering around his cave waiting for Nimue to show up.
This book was not that bad, and I liked it better than Crystal Cave, which for the most part was downright dull. Not sure I'm looking forward to the next one, because it could either be really interesting or Merlin puttering around his cave waiting for Nimue to show up.
Storyteller Knight
This book was wretched and I hate Merlin.
Those are some great final thoughts
This book was wretched and I hate Merlin.
Those are some great final thoughts
SamoaPhoenix
Oh! And Lancelot not being super attractive was a bonus.
Oh! And Lancelot not being super attractive was a bonus.
Storyteller Knight
I've read that. I've read that so many times that whenever I see Lancelot described as not attractive I roll my eyes.
I've read that. I've read that so many times that whenever I see Lancelot described as not attractive I roll my eyes.
SamoaPhoenix
I will be interested to see what Guinevere sees in him. Since he's described as not that bright, either.
I will be interested to see what Guinevere sees in him. Since he's described as not that bright, either.
Storyteller Knight
So, I guess here's hoping the review of The Last Enchantment goes up before the end of January so we have the answers to these questions.
So, I guess here's hoping the review of The Last Enchantment goes up before the end of January so we have the answers to these questions.
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