~Storyteller Knight
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Last review! And we're both so happy to be done with this series!
Warning for Spoilers of The Prince and the Pilgrim, The Paths of Camelot series, and Spamalot
SamoaPhoenix
Ok
Ready
Facepalm
Ready
Facepalm
Storyteller Knight
Did you notice that Benoic moved north again?
Did you notice that Benoic moved north again?
SamoaPhoenix
No.
No.
Storyteller Knight
It did. It was mentioned as being not far from Alice's home in Rheged.
It did. It was mentioned as being not far from Alice's home in Rheged.
SamoaPhoenix
Why are you so bothered by these detail changes at this point? It's Mary Stewart. She is not to be bothered with petty details like locations of things that we never visit.
Why are you so bothered by these detail changes at this point? It's Mary Stewart. She is not to be bothered with petty details like locations of things that we never visit.
Storyteller Knight
I'm just entertained. Mostly. Like, at least Morgan's name mostly stayed the same it just had stuff added to it. Benoic has had three locations over the course of five books.
That's pretty pathetic.
I'm just entertained. Mostly. Like, at least Morgan's name mostly stayed the same it just had stuff added to it. Benoic has had three locations over the course of five books.
That's pretty pathetic.
SamoaPhoenix
She is really not interested. For as hard as she tries for historical accuracy about the time period, names and places are not a priority.
She is really not interested. For as hard as she tries for historical accuracy about the time period, names and places are not a priority.
Storyteller Knight
It is kinda ridiculous considering how long she goes on and on about this stuff in her notes.
It is kinda ridiculous considering how long she goes on and on about this stuff in her notes.
SamoaPhoenix
I guess she reads the legends. Not, you know, geography books and things.
But really, this whole five-book saga exists at her pleasure. Characters do things because they have to for the story, not because it makes sense.
They're not actually "real" characters in the sense that they're allowed to develop beyond what she planned for the story.
I guess she reads the legends. Not, you know, geography books and things.
But really, this whole five-book saga exists at her pleasure. Characters do things because they have to for the story, not because it makes sense.
They're not actually "real" characters in the sense that they're allowed to develop beyond what she planned for the story.
Storyteller Knight
No, which has probably been the most frustrating aspect of this series so far. Everyone is so bland.
No, which has probably been the most frustrating aspect of this series so far. Everyone is so bland.
SamoaPhoenix 7:00 pm
Anyone who shows an inch of spirit is hammered down with more blandness until they submit.
Like Anna
I was really impressed with how she went for that sword after Baudoin was murdered. And then she fades quietly into complacency.
Anyone who shows an inch of spirit is hammered down with more blandness until they submit.
Like Anna
I was really impressed with how she went for that sword after Baudoin was murdered. And then she fades quietly into complacency.
Storyteller Knight
I really liked in the end how we fell into the old trope of wives not getting along with their mother-in-laws between Anna and Alice. That was probably one of the more offensive things I read in this book.
Which, all things considered especially with the other books in this series, this book really isn't that offensive.
I really liked in the end how we fell into the old trope of wives not getting along with their mother-in-laws between Anna and Alice. That was probably one of the more offensive things I read in this book.
Which, all things considered especially with the other books in this series, this book really isn't that offensive.
SamoaPhoenix
I was amused by how angry your review was.
I was amused by how angry your review was.
Storyteller Knight
I was kinda surprised at how it turned out because when I finished I was irritated but not really pissed. But when I started writing the review I kept thinking of more and more things that, taken with how the story ended where just awful. And so I got more and more snarky as I wrote
I was kinda surprised at how it turned out because when I finished I was irritated but not really pissed. But when I started writing the review I kept thinking of more and more things that, taken with how the story ended where just awful. And so I got more and more snarky as I wrote
SamoaPhoenix
Let's talk about where we laughed or smirked when reading each others' reviews.
Let's talk about where we laughed or smirked when reading each others' reviews.
Storyteller Knight
That sounds like way more fun than talking about the book.
That sounds like way more fun than talking about the book.
SamoaPhoenix
I loved your 'lol. nope--conflict is for suckers!'
Because that's pretty much what happens in this entire series
The promise of conflict that never occurs
She even talks about potential conflicts
But they never happen
I loved your 'lol. nope--conflict is for suckers!'
Because that's pretty much what happens in this entire series
The promise of conflict that never occurs
She even talks about potential conflicts
But they never happen
Storyteller Knight
I know. And what makes it so problematic is that there is actually a really well done build up to these conflicts. I mean, this whole damn book was basically a really well done build-up to a conflict that never happened. Which was so frustrating.
And I really liked how you pointed that out in your review with Anna's flight from March.
I know. And what makes it so problematic is that there is actually a really well done build up to these conflicts. I mean, this whole damn book was basically a really well done build-up to a conflict that never happened. Which was so frustrating.
And I really liked how you pointed that out in your review with Anna's flight from March.
SamoaPhoenix
It was like watching merlin "running" from Uther all over again.
It was like watching merlin "running" from Uther all over again.
Storyteller Knight
Or when he was captured by the Hill People.
Or when he was captured by the Hill People.
SamoaPhoenix
Or a million other things where there's the potential for danger/death/mutilation/humiliation that never happens.
Maybe we're spoiled by action movies.
Maybe if we viewed it like a Garrison Keillor piece where there's a long run-up to nothing it might be more palatable.
Or a million other things where there's the potential for danger/death/mutilation/humiliation that never happens.
Maybe we're spoiled by action movies.
Maybe if we viewed it like a Garrison Keillor piece where there's a long run-up to nothing it might be more palatable.
Storyteller Knight
Ouch
Mary Stewart is actually secretly Minnesotan.
Ouch
Mary Stewart is actually secretly Minnesotan.
SamoaPhoenix
Isn't that the point? I thought that was why Garrison Keillor was funny (not to me, but to other people).
Isn't that the point? I thought that was why Garrison Keillor was funny (not to me, but to other people).
Storyteller Knight
No, that aspect from the movie (Prairie Home Companion) is a Minnesota cultural thing.
No, that aspect from the movie (Prairie Home Companion) is a Minnesota cultural thing.
SamoaPhoenix
Oh. That was the explanation I got when I complained that I didn't get Prairie Home Companion
Oh. That was the explanation I got when I complained that I didn't get Prairie Home Companion
Storyteller Knight
It's more of the Minnesota Nice/passive aggressive/ don't make conflict cultural upbringing.
It's more of the Minnesota Nice/passive aggressive/ don't make conflict cultural upbringing.
SamoaPhoenix
So I guess that doesn't work for Mary Stewart then
So I guess that doesn't work for Mary Stewart then
Storyteller Knight
As opposed to this where conflict is staring you in the face and then it turns out they were always in your side to begin with and that whole thing was just a big misunderstanding.
As opposed to this where conflict is staring you in the face and then it turns out they were always in your side to begin with and that whole thing was just a big misunderstanding.
SamoaPhoenix
Yeah
Mary Stewart is not secretly Minnesotan. Aren't you relieved?
Yeah
Mary Stewart is not secretly Minnesotan. Aren't you relieved?
Storyteller Knight
Very
I liked your Spamalot snark.
Very
I liked your Spamalot snark.
SamoaPhoenix
That was the vibe I was getting from that whole flowery speech about everyone "finding their grail inside themselves".
I kept waiting for Eric Idle to pop out.
That was the vibe I was getting from that whole flowery speech about everyone "finding their grail inside themselves".
I kept waiting for Eric Idle to pop out.
Storyteller Knight
Oh, I so wanted to put in the line 'Find your male, that's your grail' but I couldn't work it in.
Oh, I so wanted to put in the line 'Find your male, that's your grail' but I couldn't work it in.
SamoaPhoenix
Very Appropriate
Very Appropriate
Storyteller Knight
Yes
Also, I reject the notion that there was no grail and it had no power and it was all just a symbol.
Yes
Also, I reject the notion that there was no grail and it had no power and it was all just a symbol.
SamoaPhoenix
And remember I wrote this review before I saw Spamalot
And remember I wrote this review before I saw Spamalot
Storyteller Knight
Well, but that sentiment is in the music.
The thing you miss just listening to the music is that they actually find the grail in the musical.
Well, but that sentiment is in the music.
The thing you miss just listening to the music is that they actually find the grail in the musical.
SamoaPhoenix
My point is I was so ingrained with the music my mind went right to that.
Sort of like my Indiana Jones comment later.
I have watched that movie so many times, and that scene is a huge in-joke in my family. So my mind went right to that when they were talking about the grail being a simple clay cup.
My point is I was so ingrained with the music my mind went right to that.
Sort of like my Indiana Jones comment later.
I have watched that movie so many times, and that scene is a huge in-joke in my family. So my mind went right to that when they were talking about the grail being a simple clay cup.
Storyteller Knight
My mind went there too.
My mind went there too.
SamoaPhoenix
And I went and checked and Mary Stewart could have seen Indiana Jones because it was out before this book was published.
And I went and checked and Mary Stewart could have seen Indiana Jones because it was out before this book was published.
Storyteller Knight
But see, that also upsets me because power is real in this world as are the gods and then to come around and say 'it's all just a symbol'... I mean, what does that say about the previous four books we've read?
But see, that also upsets me because power is real in this world as are the gods and then to come around and say 'it's all just a symbol'... I mean, what does that say about the previous four books we've read?
SamoaPhoenix
I've actually noticed that this happens in the Paths to Camelot series. People pray to God and Jesus and Mary a lot, but the stuff that actually has agency in the story is magic. People are afraid to add any agency to God/Christianity even though it is historically accurate for there to be Christians so they mention Christian stuff that, like the Grail, doesn't actually do anything.
Because a Christian Grail can't be maaaagic.
I've actually noticed that this happens in the Paths to Camelot series. People pray to God and Jesus and Mary a lot, but the stuff that actually has agency in the story is magic. People are afraid to add any agency to God/Christianity even though it is historically accurate for there to be Christians so they mention Christian stuff that, like the Grail, doesn't actually do anything.
Because a Christian Grail can't be maaaagic.
Storyteller Knight
I guess the idea is that Christianity is supposed to be above that.
I guess the idea is that Christianity is supposed to be above that.
SamoaPhoenix
I guess. But what it boils down to is you get the impression that all that prayer isn't doing them any good.
Since all the important stuff actually happens because of magic, not an act of God.
I guess. But what it boils down to is you get the impression that all that prayer isn't doing them any good.
Since all the important stuff actually happens because of magic, not an act of God.
Storyteller Knight
So I'm right, then? Jeshua should have been actualfax Jesus
So I'm right, then? Jeshua should have been actualfax Jesus
SamoaPhoenix
I hadn't thought of that until I read your review, but that would have been nice.
But then no "good" Christian would read these books because that would be blasphemy.
Or something.
I hadn't thought of that until I read your review, but that would have been nice.
But then no "good" Christian would read these books because that would be blasphemy.
Or something.
Storyteller Knight
That's an interesting conundrum you have there, then.
Because if Christian figures can't play an active role in the story because it's blasphemy, then they will never appear to have any real power alongside magic and pagan gods.
That's an interesting conundrum you have there, then.
Because if Christian figures can't play an active role in the story because it's blasphemy, then they will never appear to have any real power alongside magic and pagan gods.
SamoaPhoenix
Yeah. It's actually bothering me about the Paths to Camelot series. There's a lot of mention of Christianity but it doesn't have any bearing on the story. Presumably because the author doesn't want it labeled Christian fiction, or some other similar reason.
Yeah. It's actually bothering me about the Paths to Camelot series. There's a lot of mention of Christianity but it doesn't have any bearing on the story. Presumably because the author doesn't want it labeled Christian fiction, or some other similar reason.
Storyteller Knight
I wonder if Stewart went there and then was made to rewrite it.
I mean, I dunno. To me it seemed that at the very least we were heading to some conflict around the grail.
I mean, I know the history of conflict in this series but still.
I wonder if Stewart went there and then was made to rewrite it.
I mean, I dunno. To me it seemed that at the very least we were heading to some conflict around the grail.
I mean, I know the history of conflict in this series but still.
SamoaPhoenix
I don't think any publisher would make an author of Mary Stewart's caliber rewrite her story. It's like asking J.K. Rowling to rewrite some part of Harry Potter late in the series.
I think she wrote this story because she wanted to. It felt like fanfiction.
I don't think any publisher would make an author of Mary Stewart's caliber rewrite her story. It's like asking J.K. Rowling to rewrite some part of Harry Potter late in the series.
I think she wrote this story because she wanted to. It felt like fanfiction.
Storyteller Knight
Bad fanfiction?
Bad fanfiction?
SamoaPhoenix
I wouldn't go that far.
I didn't think it was awful.
Which brings me to my theory about why I was fine with it while you hated it.
I wouldn't go that far.
I didn't think it was awful.
Which brings me to my theory about why I was fine with it while you hated it.
Storyteller Knight
Yeah?
Yeah?
SamoaPhoenix
I went into it with little expectations. I had never read the Alexander legend, so I had no perspective on the points where Mary Stewart deviated. I noticed that Luned's name was similar to Lunete, but when nothing happened with that I assumed it was just a name Stewart came across in her research that she liked. You had lots of expectations about what was coming next based on your knowledge of the legends. I had nothing, so I was not disappointed.
I went into it with little expectations. I had never read the Alexander legend, so I had no perspective on the points where Mary Stewart deviated. I noticed that Luned's name was similar to Lunete, but when nothing happened with that I assumed it was just a name Stewart came across in her research that she liked. You had lots of expectations about what was coming next based on your knowledge of the legends. I had nothing, so I was not disappointed.
Storyteller Knight
Maybe that's part of it
But the Grail was set up as something important in the third book.
Maybe that's part of it
But the Grail was set up as something important in the third book.
SamoaPhoenix
I was just relieved that there was more dialogue and more showing rather than telling.
I was just relieved that there was more dialogue and more showing rather than telling.
Storyteller Knight
There was the insinuation that we were going to come back to it and we started to and then we didn't.
There was the insinuation that we were going to come back to it and we started to and then we didn't.
SamoaPhoenix
That's just the way Mary Stewart rolls.
Starting on conflict, lots of setup, no payoff.
That's just the way Mary Stewart rolls.
Starting on conflict, lots of setup, no payoff.
Storyteller Knight
Yes. And this was a whole damn book's worth of lots of setup, no payoff.
Yes. And this was a whole damn book's worth of lots of setup, no payoff.
SamoaPhoenix
Merlin's disastrous romance was set up for three whole books. How did that end up? Non-conflict.
Lots of setup and foreshadowing, little to no payoff.
Merlin's disastrous romance was set up for three whole books. How did that end up? Non-conflict.
Lots of setup and foreshadowing, little to no payoff.
Storyteller Knight
True
That seems less obnoxious because there was more to Merlin to bitch about.
True
That seems less obnoxious because there was more to Merlin to bitch about.
SamoaPhoenix
You bitched about Alexander.
I enjoyed that too.
You bitched about Alexander.
I enjoyed that too.
Storyteller Knight
I'm glad. I had fun griping about him.
Like, I guess if Last Enchantment was a study in how one line could make you go from hating a book to enjoying it, The Prince and the Pilgrim is a study in how one line could make you go from enjoying a book to hating it.
I'm glad. I had fun griping about him.
Like, I guess if Last Enchantment was a study in how one line could make you go from hating a book to enjoying it, The Prince and the Pilgrim is a study in how one line could make you go from enjoying a book to hating it.
SamoaPhoenix
"Psych! It's not real!"
"Psych! It's not real!"
Storyteller Knight
There is no plot and there is no resolution to everything introduced in the story and there is no explanation to characters unexplained actions in previous books.
And Jeshua isn't Jesus.
There is no plot and there is no resolution to everything introduced in the story and there is no explanation to characters unexplained actions in previous books.
And Jeshua isn't Jesus.
SamoaPhoenix
I almost would have been happier if she had never seen him again.
Then we would have been left with a "was he?" or "wasn't he?" that actually would have validated the whole thing.
Instead she had to go make him a real person.
I almost would have been happier if she had never seen him again.
Then we would have been left with a "was he?" or "wasn't he?" that actually would have validated the whole thing.
Instead she had to go make him a real person.
Storyteller Knight
When he showed up again I figured he absolutely had to be because that was too damn convenient.
I should have remembered who I was reading.
When he showed up again I figured he absolutely had to be because that was too damn convenient.
I should have remembered who I was reading.
SamoaPhoenix
People appear and disappear at the author's convenience.
People appear and disappear at the author's convenience.
Storyteller Knight
And I like how Morgan, caught plotting treason again, is still just left alone.
I mean, she has to be for Wicked Day but it makes Arthur seem stupid.
And I like how Morgan, caught plotting treason again, is still just left alone.
I mean, she has to be for Wicked Day but it makes Arthur seem stupid.
SamoaPhoenix
She is so unimportant, Arthur and Nimue don't bother with trying to control her.
She is so unimportant, Arthur and Nimue don't bother with trying to control her.
Storyteller Knight
I would have loved an explanation for why she's helping Nimue at the end of the Wicked Day and why, after all this shit, Nimue lets her.
I would have loved an explanation for why she's helping Nimue at the end of the Wicked Day and why, after all this shit, Nimue lets her.
SamoaPhoenix
She's supposed to do that in the legend. Previous character doesn't enter into it. You need a further explanation?
She's supposed to do that in the legend. Previous character doesn't enter into it. You need a further explanation?
Storyteller Knight
I want one.
I crave one.
I want one.
I crave one.
SamoaPhoenix
The characters serve at the author's pleasure.
The characters serve at the author's pleasure.
Storyteller Knight
I know I'm never going to get it and yet I will never stop demanding it.
Of course, I'm never reading these books ever again.
I know I'm never going to get it and yet I will never stop demanding it.
Of course, I'm never reading these books ever again.
SamoaPhoenix
I don't think I will, either. I am seriously considering selling my copies.
I don't think I will, either. I am seriously considering selling my copies.
Storyteller Knight
Don't you have like, original edition?
Don't you have like, original edition?
SamoaPhoenix
Yes.
Yes.
Storyteller Knight
Send them to me. I will take original edition copies of any Arthurian book.
Send them to me. I will take original edition copies of any Arthurian book.
SamoaPhoenix
I'll keep them for you and bring them out next time I come. Shipping will be very expensive since they are hardback and thick.
I'll keep them for you and bring them out next time I come. Shipping will be very expensive since they are hardback and thick.
Storyteller Knight
Thanks. That'll be what now, three copies of Wicked Day.
Thanks. That'll be what now, three copies of Wicked Day.
SamoaPhoenix
Apparently.
Apparently.
Storyteller Knight
Something's wrong with me.
Anyway, that concludes our first joint review with no plans right now for a second.
Anyway, that concludes our first joint review with no plans right now for a second.
SamoaPhoenix
Right.
Though this has not been a worthless project.
Right.
Though this has not been a worthless project.
Storyteller Knight
Although if we do do another one I vote it be a reread of Gerald Morris' books.
Although if we do do another one I vote it be a reread of Gerald Morris' books.
SamoaPhoenix
That's a big project. But it sounds good for some time in the future.
That's a big project. But it sounds good for some time in the future.
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