Welcome All- A Few Things to Know

Welcome All- A Few Things to Keep In Mind:

1. Hi all. I'm Storyteller Knight. You can find me on Fictionpress where I write novels about King Arthur, Superheroes and Vampires (but not at the same time) and at Pardon My Sarcasm where I rage about how the republicans are ruining all things.

2. Here is the Master List of books read, books owned and books needed to complete a series. Superscripts next to title links to reviews on this site. Or you can search using the lables.

3. I'm approaching this blog with the assumption that everyone reading already knows the ultimate spoiler of the King Arthur Legend: Everyone Dies. Those who read King Arthur books do so to see different interpretations of the characters and the stories. My goal here is to analyze the effectiveness of those interpretations. Thus, all my reviews will include spoilers.

4. This is not an Arthurian 101 blog. As I said above, I'm assuming that everyone reading already knows the legend and is looking for different interpretations of that legend. Therefore, I'm not going to take time to explain who the characters are and what roles they traditionally play. Links to Arthurian Encyclopedias at the bottom of the page.

5. These reviews are my opinions of the books. I may hate a book you love or I may love a book you hate. If you have a different opinion, write it up. I'd be more than happy to have some guest posts.

6. Please don't ask me (or any of the guest bloggers) to do your homework for you. As I said above, this is a blog dedicated at looking at these books from an Arthurian perspective. If you comment on posts asking us what the theme is or such, we're just going to screw with you.

Saturday, March 24, 2012

The Prince and the Pilgrim Discussion

This is part 3 of 3 in SamoaPhoenix and my joint review/discussion of Mary Stewart's The Prince and the Pilgrim.  My review can be found here and SaomoaPhoenix's review can be found here.

~Storyteller Knight


Last review!  And we're both so happy to be done with this series!

Warning for Spoilers of The Prince and the Pilgrim, The Paths of Camelot series, and Spamalot

SamoaPhoenix 
    Ok
    
Ready
    
Facepalm

 Storyteller Knight
    
Did you notice that Benoic moved north again?

 SamoaPhoenix
    
No.

 Storyteller Knight
    
It did.  It was mentioned as being not far from Alice's home in Rheged.

 SamoaPhoenix 
    
Why are you so bothered by these detail changes at this point? It's Mary Stewart. She is not to be bothered with petty details like locations of things that we never visit.

 Storyteller Knight
    
I'm just entertained.  Mostly.  Like, at least Morgan's name mostly stayed the same it just had stuff added to it.  Benoic has had three locations over the course of five books. 
    
That's pretty pathetic.

 SamoaPhoenix 
    
She is really not interested. For as hard as she tries for historical accuracy about the time period, names and places are not a priority.

 Storyteller Knight 
    
It is kinda ridiculous considering how long she goes on and on about this stuff in her notes.

 SamoaPhoenix
    
I guess she reads the legends. Not, you know, geography books and things.
    
But really, this whole five-book saga exists at her pleasure. Characters do things because they have to for the story, not because it makes sense.
    
They're not actually "real" characters in the sense that they're allowed to develop beyond what she planned for the story.

 Storyteller Knight 
    
No, which has probably been the most frustrating aspect of this series so far.  Everyone is so bland.

 SamoaPhoenix 7:00 pm
    
Anyone who shows an inch of spirit is hammered down with more blandness until they submit.
    
Like Anna
    
I was really impressed with how she went for that sword after Baudoin was murdered. And then she fades quietly into complacency.

 Storyteller Knight 
    
I really liked in the end how we fell into the old trope of wives not getting along with their mother-in-laws between Anna and Alice.  That was probably one of the more offensive things I read in this book.
    Which, all things considered especially with the other books in this series, this book really isn't that offensive.

 SamoaPhoenix 
    
I was amused by how angry your review was.

 Storyteller Knight 
    
I was kinda surprised at how it turned out because when I finished I was irritated but not really pissed.  But when I started writing the review I kept thinking of more and more things that, taken with how the story ended where just awful.  And so I got more and more snarky as I wrote

 SamoaPhoenix 
    
Let's talk about where we laughed or smirked when reading each others' reviews.

 Storyteller Knight 
    
That sounds like way more fun than talking about the book.

 SamoaPhoenix 
    
I loved your 'lol. nope--conflict is for suckers!'
    
Because that's pretty much what happens in this entire series
    
The promise of conflict that never occurs
    
She even talks about potential conflicts
    
But they never happen

 Storyteller Knight 
    
I know.  And what makes it so problematic is that there is actually a really well done build up to these conflicts.  I mean, this whole damn book was basically a really well done build-up to a conflict that never happened.  Which was so frustrating.
    
And I really liked how you pointed that out in your review with Anna's flight from March.

 SamoaPhoenix
    
It was like watching merlin "running" from Uther all over again.

 Storyteller Knight
    
Or when he was captured by the Hill People. 

 SamoaPhoenix
    
Or a million other things where there's the potential for danger/death/mutilation/humiliation that never happens.
    
Maybe we're spoiled by action movies.
    
Maybe if we viewed it like a Garrison Keillor piece where there's a long run-up to nothing it might be more palatable.

 Storyteller Knight
    
Ouch
    
Mary Stewart is actually secretly Minnesotan.

 SamoaPhoenix
    
Isn't that the point? I thought that was why Garrison Keillor was funny (not to me, but to other people).

 Storyteller Knight
    
No, that aspect from the movie (Prairie Home Companion) is a Minnesota cultural thing.

 SamoaPhoenix
    
Oh. That was the explanation I got when I complained that I didn't get Prairie Home Companion

 Storyteller Knight 
    
It's more of the Minnesota Nice/passive aggressive/ don't make conflict cultural upbringing.

 SamoaPhoenix
    
So I guess that doesn't work for Mary Stewart then

 Storyteller Knight
    
As opposed to this where conflict is staring you in the face and then it turns out they were always in your side to begin with and that whole thing was just a big misunderstanding.

 SamoaPhoenix
    
Yeah
    
Mary Stewart is not secretly Minnesotan. Aren't you relieved?

 Storyteller Knight 
    
Very
    
I liked your Spamalot snark.

 SamoaPhoenix
    
That was the vibe I was getting from that whole flowery speech about everyone "finding their grail inside themselves".
    
I kept waiting for Eric Idle to pop out.

 Storyteller Knight 
    
Oh, I so wanted to put in the line 'Find your male, that's your grail' but I couldn't work it in.

 SamoaPhoenix
    
Very Appropriate

 Storyteller Knight
    
Yes
    
Also, I reject the notion that there was no grail and it had no power and it was all just a symbol.

 SamoaPhoenix
    
And remember I wrote this review before I saw Spamalot

 Storyteller Knight 
    
Well, but that sentiment is in the music.
    
The thing you miss just listening to the music is that they actually find the grail in the musical.

 SamoaPhoenix
    
My point is I was so ingrained with the music my mind went right to that.
    
Sort of like my Indiana Jones comment later.
    
I have watched that movie so many times, and that scene is a huge in-joke in my family. So my mind went right to that when they were talking about the grail being a simple clay cup.

 Storyteller Knight
    
My mind went there too.

 SamoaPhoenix
    
And I went and checked and Mary Stewart could have seen Indiana Jones because it was out before this book was published.

 Storyteller Knight 
    
But see, that also upsets me because power is real in this world as are the gods and then to come around and say 'it's all just a symbol'... I mean, what does that say about the previous four books we've read?

 SamoaPhoenix
    
I've actually noticed that this happens in the Paths to Camelot series. People pray to God and Jesus and Mary a lot, but the stuff that actually has agency in the story is magic. People are afraid to add any agency to God/Christianity even though it is historically accurate for there to be Christians so they mention Christian stuff that, like the Grail, doesn't actually do anything.
    
Because a Christian Grail can't be maaaagic.

 Storyteller Knight
    
I guess the idea is that Christianity is supposed to be above that.

 SamoaPhoenix
    
I guess. But what it boils down to is you get the impression that all that prayer isn't doing them any good.
    
Since all the important stuff actually happens because of magic, not an act of God.

 Storyteller Knight
    
So I'm right, then?  Jeshua should have been actualfax Jesus

 SamoaPhoenix
    
I hadn't thought of that until I read your review, but that would have been nice.
    
But then no "good" Christian would read these books because that would be blasphemy.
    
Or something.

 Storyteller Knight
    
That's an interesting conundrum you have there, then.
    
Because if Christian figures can't play an active role in the story because it's blasphemy, then they will never appear to have any real power alongside magic and pagan gods.

 SamoaPhoenix
    
Yeah. It's actually bothering me about the Paths to Camelot series. There's a lot of mention of Christianity but it doesn't have any bearing on the story. Presumably because the author doesn't want it labeled Christian fiction, or some other similar reason.

 Storyteller Knight
    
I wonder if Stewart went there and then was made to rewrite it.
    
I mean, I dunno.  To me it seemed that at the very least we were heading to some conflict around the grail.
    
I mean, I know the history of conflict in this series but still.

 SamoaPhoenix
    
I don't think any publisher would make an author of Mary Stewart's caliber rewrite her story. It's like asking J.K. Rowling to rewrite some part of Harry Potter late in the series.
    
I think she wrote this story because she wanted to. It felt like fanfiction.

 Storyteller Knight 
    
Bad fanfiction?

 SamoaPhoenix
    
I wouldn't go that far.
    
I didn't think it was awful.
    
Which brings me to my theory about why I was fine with it while you hated it.

 Storyteller Knight
    
Yeah?

 SamoaPhoenix 
    
I went into it with little expectations. I had never read the Alexander legend, so I had no perspective on the points where Mary Stewart deviated. I noticed that Luned's name was similar to Lunete, but when nothing happened with that I assumed it was just a name Stewart came across in her research that she liked. You had lots of expectations about what was coming next based on your knowledge of the legends. I had nothing, so I was not disappointed.

 Storyteller Knight 
    
Maybe that's part of it
    
But the Grail was set up as something important in the third book.

 SamoaPhoenix 
    
I was just relieved that there was more dialogue and more showing rather than telling.

 Storyteller Knight 
    
There was the insinuation that we were going to come back to it and we started to and then we didn't.

 SamoaPhoenix 
    
That's just the way Mary Stewart rolls.
    
Starting on conflict, lots of setup, no payoff.

 Storyteller Knight 
    
Yes.  And this was a whole damn book's worth of lots of setup, no payoff.

 SamoaPhoenix 
    
Merlin's disastrous romance was set up for three whole books. How did that end up? Non-conflict.
    
Lots of setup and foreshadowing, little to no payoff.

 Storyteller Knight 
    
True
    
That seems less obnoxious because there was more to Merlin to bitch about.

 SamoaPhoenix 
    
You bitched about Alexander.
    
I enjoyed that too.

 Storyteller Knight
    
I'm glad.  I had fun griping about him.
    
Like, I guess if Last Enchantment was a study in how one line could make you go from hating a book to enjoying it, The Prince and the Pilgrim is a study in how one line could make you go from enjoying a book to hating it.

 SamoaPhoenix 
    
"Psych! It's not real!"

 Storyteller Knight 
    
There is no plot and there is no resolution to everything introduced in the story and there is no explanation to characters unexplained actions in previous books.
    
And Jeshua isn't Jesus.

 SamoaPhoenix 
    
I almost would have been happier if she had never seen him again.
    
Then we would have been left with a "was he?" or "wasn't he?" that actually would have validated the whole thing.
    
Instead she had to go make him a real person.

 Storyteller Knight 
    
When he showed up again I figured he absolutely had to be because that was too damn convenient.
    I should have remembered who I was reading.

 SamoaPhoenix 
    
People appear and disappear at the author's convenience.

 Storyteller Knight
    
And I like how Morgan, caught plotting treason again, is still just left alone.
    
I mean, she has to be for Wicked Day but it makes Arthur seem stupid.

 SamoaPhoenix 
    
She is so unimportant, Arthur and Nimue don't bother with trying to control her.

 Storyteller Knight 
    
I would have loved an explanation for why she's helping Nimue at the end of the Wicked Day and why, after all this shit, Nimue lets her.

 SamoaPhoenix 
    
She's supposed to do that in the legend. Previous character doesn't enter into it. You need a further explanation?

 Storyteller Knight 
    
I want one.
    
I crave one.

 SamoaPhoenix 
    
The characters serve at the author's pleasure.

 Storyteller Knight 
    
I know I'm never going to get it and yet I will never stop demanding it.
    
Of course, I'm never reading these books ever again.

 SamoaPhoenix 
    
I don't think I will, either. I am seriously considering selling my copies.

 Storyteller Knight 
    
Don't you have like, original edition?

 SamoaPhoenix 
    
Yes.

 Storyteller Knight
    
Send them to me.  I will take original edition copies of any Arthurian book.

 SamoaPhoenix
    
I'll keep them for you and bring them out next time I come. Shipping will be very expensive since they are hardback and thick.

 Storyteller Knight
    
Thanks.  That'll be what now, three copies of Wicked Day.

 SamoaPhoenix 
    
Apparently.

 Storyteller Knight 
    Something's wrong with me.
    
Anyway, that concludes our first joint review with no plans right now for a second.

 SamoaPhoenix
    
Right.
    
Though this has not been a worthless project.

 Storyteller Knight 
    
Although if we do do another one I vote it be a reread of Gerald Morris' books.

 SamoaPhoenix 
    
That's a big project. But it sounds good for some time in the future.

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