~Storyteller Knight
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SamoaPhoenix and I have just swapped our reviews of the book and she has just finished reading my take on the book.
Warning for Spoilers
SamoaPhoenix
Seriously, you cried?
Storyteller Knight
I did!
At the end where they're gathering up Arthur to take him often to be healed and Mordred is just left there bleeding to death
At the end where they're gathering up Arthur to take him often to be healed and Mordred is just left there bleeding to death
SamoaPhoenix
I did see a lot of your version of Mordred in this book
It seems to have influenced you more than you realized
I did see a lot of your version of Mordred in this book
It seems to have influenced you more than you realized
Storyteller Knight
Apparently. Because I did not even remember this book
correctly.
Like, we get to the scene where Bedwyr’s attacked by Gaheris, Agravain and their crew and I remember Mordred helping him flee from Camelot before taking off in his own exile. That was a completely different book I read at the same time.
Like, we get to the scene where Bedwyr’s attacked by Gaheris, Agravain and their crew and I remember Mordred helping him flee from Camelot before taking off in his own exile. That was a completely different book I read at the same time.
SamoaPhoenix
Wow
It was interesting because I kept expecting to see Mordred's difficulty in trusting people be his downfall. but he never changed and was loyal to the end despite the legend
Wow
It was interesting because I kept expecting to see Mordred's difficulty in trusting people be his downfall. but he never changed and was loyal to the end despite the legend
Storyteller Knight
Yes. I liked that because, as Stewart points out in her
notes, the original makes no sense. NO SENSE!
SamoaPhoenix
And Arthur at least is way out of character if what happens in Malory's version is "true"
And Arthur at least is way out of character if what happens in Malory's version is "true"
Storyteller Knight
Oh, totally. It’s like “Arthur, this kid is wrecking your kingdom. And you're going to leave him alone as regent? Really?"
Oh, totally. It’s like “Arthur, this kid is wrecking your kingdom. And you're going to leave him alone as regent? Really?"
SamoaPhoenix
I sort of wish she had had Mordred completely defy fate and be at Arthur's side at the last battle and made some sort of point about how we can make our own fate
Merlin's gods are not the kind of gods I'd want to serve if they do stuff like this to people
I sort of wish she had had Mordred completely defy fate and be at Arthur's side at the last battle and made some sort of point about how we can make our own fate
Merlin's gods are not the kind of gods I'd want to serve if they do stuff like this to people
Storyteller Knight
That would have been awesome. I don't know why she didn't. It wasn't as if there weren't already a ton of continuity lapses in the story already
That would have been awesome. I don't know why she didn't. It wasn't as if there weren't already a ton of continuity lapses in the story already
SamoaPhoenix
I know
And it wasn't as if she didn't "defy" the legend by having Mordred not go over to the dark side at all
I know
And it wasn't as if she didn't "defy" the legend by having Mordred not go over to the dark side at all
Storyteller Knight
This brings me to my most important question in the whole book
How old is King Hoel? Dude must have been ancient.
This brings me to my most important question in the whole book
How old is King Hoel? Dude must have been ancient.
SamoaPhoenix
Yeah
Well, he must have great-great grandkids because Cerdic has great-grandkids
Yeah
Well, he must have great-great grandkids because Cerdic has great-grandkids
Storyteller Knight
I mean, he's got to be close to Uther's age, right? Or at least closer to Uther's age then Merlin's.
I mean, he's got to be close to Uther's age, right? Or at least closer to Uther's age then Merlin's.
SamoaPhoenix
Probably
So he's one of the lucky few in medieval times who lives to, like 80
Some people did
Probably
So he's one of the lucky few in medieval times who lives to, like 80
Some people did
Storyteller Knight
And still runs out into battle
That was where the suspension of disbelief was lost
And still runs out into battle
That was where the suspension of disbelief was lost
SamoaPhoenix
Yeah, that was stretching it
Yeah, that was stretching it
Storyteller Knight
That and Benoic suddenly being in Less Britain caused major eye rolling on my behalf
That and Benoic suddenly being in Less Britain caused major eye rolling on my behalf
SamoaPhoenix
I love it when authors don't read their own books
People like Tamora Pierce can be forgiven because she has a ton of Tortall books and sometimes details slip by her. Mary Stewart has 3 to keep track of when writing Wicked Day
I love it when authors don't read their own books
People like Tamora Pierce can be forgiven because she has a ton of Tortall books and sometimes details slip by her. Mary Stewart has 3 to keep track of when writing Wicked Day
Storyteller Knight
Hell, two books to keep track of when Morgian suddenly became Morgan
Anyways, those were my major nitpicks aside from the writing style
Hell, two books to keep track of when Morgian suddenly became Morgan
Anyways, those were my major nitpicks aside from the writing style
SamoaPhoenix
I don't understand it. She takes these big, epic stories that could be so fascinating and makes them dull
There is a lot of telling and not much showing. Half the time, I was like "really? I don't believe you" when we suddenly jumped to another character for a paragraph to explain their motives
I don't understand it. She takes these big, epic stories that could be so fascinating and makes them dull
There is a lot of telling and not much showing. Half the time, I was like "really? I don't believe you" when we suddenly jumped to another character for a paragraph to explain their motives
Storyteller Knight
Yeah, that happened with Gaheris a lot
He could have been a really fascinating psychopath
Yeah, that happened with Gaheris a lot
He could have been a really fascinating psychopath
SamoaPhoenix
Crazed by being in lust with his mother
Crazed by being in lust with his mother
Storyteller Knight
Well, if Stewart had taken more care with that relationship it could have been like… Gaheris was Morgause's second option or something. She groomed him up into this crazy through this devotion to her and spun it into lust.
Well, if Stewart had taken more care with that relationship it could have been like… Gaheris was Morgause's second option or something. She groomed him up into this crazy through this devotion to her and spun it into lust.
SamoaPhoenix
It looked like she was trying that with Gareth but he didn't spend enough time with her to be corrupted
Note that he's the least crazy of all her sons that grew up with her as their mother (I don't count Mordred because he said to the end Sula was his mother)
It looked like she was trying that with Gareth but he didn't spend enough time with her to be corrupted
Note that he's the least crazy of all her sons that grew up with her as their mother (I don't count Mordred because he said to the end Sula was his mother)
Storyteller Knight
Gawain made me sad. He started off so promising
SamoaPhoenix
Yeah, he started out being an interesting and rounded character. He has a temper but can let it cool. He and Mordred have a complex but mostly positive relationship since Mordred can in no way take the Orkneys from him. Then he disappears off to Orkney to rule and transforms into a completely different person.
At that fight with the Romans at the end, it was like Stewart didn't have Gaheris to put all the crazy on so she just dumped Gaheris's kneejerk reactions on Gawain even though it's been established he doesn't act like that
It put it on he went a little nuts when Gareth died
Yeah, he started out being an interesting and rounded character. He has a temper but can let it cool. He and Mordred have a complex but mostly positive relationship since Mordred can in no way take the Orkneys from him. Then he disappears off to Orkney to rule and transforms into a completely different person.
At that fight with the Romans at the end, it was like Stewart didn't have Gaheris to put all the crazy on so she just dumped Gaheris's kneejerk reactions on Gawain even though it's been established he doesn't act like that
It put it on he went a little nuts when Gareth died
Storyteller Knigh
I don't know if it had been established that he didn't though, because
since Gabran's death everyone seemed careful about not letting Gawain too close
to people who had insulted his honor (Gaheris, Lamorak, Bedwyr), at least not
right away. He would cool but it took time.
I wouldn't put Gawain's unraveling at Gareth's death but at watching Mordred kill Gabran.
I wouldn't put Gawain's unraveling at Gareth's death but at watching Mordred kill Gabran.
SamoaPhoenix
He and Mordred aren't really friends after that moment, but that's because they both find out who Mordred really is before they see each other again. Gawain never quite figures out how Mordred fits in the family pecking order after that, other than the reassurance that Mordred can't take the Orkneys.
He and Mordred aren't really friends after that moment, but that's because they both find out who Mordred really is before they see each other again. Gawain never quite figures out how Mordred fits in the family pecking order after that, other than the reassurance that Mordred can't take the Orkneys.
Storyteller Knight
Agreed. So, I don't really buy any reason given here for Gawain's sudden personality shift, but this is where it occurs.
Agreed. So, I don't really buy any reason given here for Gawain's sudden personality shift, but this is where it occurs.
SamoaPhoenix
But we never have any evidence of Gawain actually losing his temper until the thing with the Romans. Everyone is afraid of Gawain's reactions to Gaheris killing Morgause, etc... but we never see the reason for this
But we never have any evidence of Gawain actually losing his temper until the thing with the Romans. Everyone is afraid of Gawain's reactions to Gaheris killing Morgause, etc... but we never see the reason for this
Storyteller Knight
Agreed. Gawain was poorly done.
Agreed. Gawain was poorly done.
SamoaPhoenix
He comes and goes when Stewart needs him for something, rather than because he's a character with motivations of his own
He comes and goes when Stewart needs him for something, rather than because he's a character with motivations of his own
Storyteller Knight
They all seem like that except for maybe Mordred and Arthur
They all seem like that except for maybe Mordred and Arthur
SamoaPhoenix
She also seemed not to know what to do with Agravain. So she just made him Gaheris's shadow except for being in love with Morgause
And I still can't figure Morgan/Morgian out.
Morgause, OK, she has some reasons to be irritated with the Pendragons even though she carries it way too far
She also seemed not to know what to do with Agravain. So she just made him Gaheris's shadow except for being in love with Morgause
And I still can't figure Morgan/Morgian out.
Morgause, OK, she has some reasons to be irritated with the Pendragons even though she carries it way too far
Storyteller Knight
Morgan is not important enough to have her name stay the same from book to book. If Stewart doesn't care, why are you bothering?
Morgan is not important enough to have her name stay the same from book to book. If Stewart doesn't care, why are you bothering?
SamoaPhoenix
Morgan has zero reason to be the angry, bitter person she is
Morgan has zero reason to be the angry, bitter person she is
Storyteller Knight
I mean, the only reason I would give is that she's ambitious like everyone in her family but has no outlet for it as a woman.
I mean, the only reason I would give is that she's ambitious like everyone in her family but has no outlet for it as a woman.
SamoaPhoenix
But she seemed to be fulfilling her ambitions by becoming a Queen. She seemed happy enough when she got married because it wasn't to creepy Lot
But she seemed to be fulfilling her ambitions by becoming a Queen. She seemed happy enough when she got married because it wasn't to creepy Lot
Storyteller Knight
Maybe she got bored.
I mean, we never see her again so we never know.
Maybe she got bored.
I mean, we never see her again so we never know.
SamoaPhoenix
I almost wish Stewart had written a book about her just so we might get a sympathetic take on her. Stewart seems to sympathize a lot with her main characters
I almost wish Stewart had written a book about her just so we might get a sympathetic take on her. Stewart seems to sympathize a lot with her main characters
Storyteller Knight
There's got to be a better Morgan book out there than Mists of Avalon, that's for sure
There's got to be a better Morgan book out there than Mists of Avalon, that's for sure
SamoaPhoenix 8:31 pm
Nancy Springer has a Morgan le Fay book, a companion to her Mordred book
The one that has Mordred give up the goodness in his soul so he can become the heartless monster he's prophesied to be after trying for years to escape it only to have everyone tell him he needs to be evil
Nancy Springer has a Morgan le Fay book, a companion to her Mordred book
The one that has Mordred give up the goodness in his soul so he can become the heartless monster he's prophesied to be after trying for years to escape it only to have everyone tell him he needs to be evil
Storyteller Knight
So maybe that would be good. J. Robert King has one too as a part of his series that I am interested in getting my hands on.
So maybe that would be good. J. Robert King has one too as a part of his series that I am interested in getting my hands on.
SamoaPhoenix
Morgan doesn't get her own book in Gerald Morris' books but he portrays her sympathetically
Morgan doesn't get her own book in Gerald Morris' books but he portrays her sympathetically
Storyteller Knight
I do enjoy her and Gawain bickering in his books
I do enjoy her and Gawain bickering in his books
SamoaPhoenix
Debating over who's older
Debating over who's older
Storyteller Knight
But let's get back on the topic of this book
But let's get back on the topic of this book
SamoaPhoenix
We seem to have similar opinions on this one
Unlike previous books
We seem to have similar opinions on this one
Unlike previous books
Storyteller Knight
Yes. In general it's interesting how underwhelmed we've been by this series as a whole.
Yes. In general it's interesting how underwhelmed we've been by this series as a whole.
SamoaPhoenix
As I said in my little blurb, I do not understand all the reviews where people say these are their favorite books ever
As I said in my little blurb, I do not understand all the reviews where people say these are their favorite books ever
Storyteller Knight
I don't either. After what we had to suffer through with Merlin just... I don't understand what people see in him. He certainly doesn't see anything worthwhile in you.
I don't either. After what we had to suffer through with Merlin just... I don't understand what people see in him. He certainly doesn't see anything worthwhile in you.
SamoaPhoenix
Most people, especially women, are beneath his notice unless they do something really spectacular to get his attention. Like ask him to teach them magic or get kidnapped. Anything else, you're not worth a second glance
Most people, especially women, are beneath his notice unless they do something really spectacular to get his attention. Like ask him to teach them magic or get kidnapped. Anything else, you're not worth a second glance
Storyteller Knight 8:41 pm
That was one thing that made me sad. Mordred's view of women isn't that much different than Merlin's. It wasn't as obvious or as infuriating in this book as it was with Merlin but it still sucked.
That was one thing that made me sad. Mordred's view of women isn't that much different than Merlin's. It wasn't as obvious or as infuriating in this book as it was with Merlin but it still sucked.
SamoaPhoenix
I commented on that in my review
I commented on that in my review
Storyteller Knight
Yeah, I saw that. I said basically the same thing in my commentary on the rape that served no purpose.
Yeah, I saw that. I said basically the same thing in my commentary on the rape that served no purpose.
SamoaPhoenix
That whole thing was pointless
Other than for Mary Stewart to prove that, yes, she can write a rape
That whole thing was pointless
Other than for Mary Stewart to prove that, yes, she can write a rape
Storyteller Knight
Hurray for her!
Hurray for her!
SamoaPhoenix
But she didn't need to
But she didn't need to
Storyteller Knight 8:45 pm
Actually, this whole endeavor has made me love Nancy McKenzie a million times more than I already did because she took the frame of this story and retold it from Guinevere's point of view. So you still get shit moment where Morgause and Morgan are evil for no reason because they don't cross paths with Gwen all that much so she doesn't really have a chance to delve into their reasoning. But then there are moments like this where the rape really has a narrative purpose in Galahad's reaction because it shows how completely off his rocker that kid is.
Actually, this whole endeavor has made me love Nancy McKenzie a million times more than I already did because she took the frame of this story and retold it from Guinevere's point of view. So you still get shit moment where Morgause and Morgan are evil for no reason because they don't cross paths with Gwen all that much so she doesn't really have a chance to delve into their reasoning. But then there are moments like this where the rape really has a narrative purpose in Galahad's reaction because it shows how completely off his rocker that kid is.
SamoaPhoenix
I miss having fun with Arthurian legends
I miss having fun with Arthurian legends
Storyteller Knight
Me too. We should, like, do a re-read of Gerald Morris at some point
Me too. We should, like, do a re-read of Gerald Morris at some point
SamoaPhoenix
Gerald Morris and T.A. Barron inject at least some humor
Gerald Morris and T.A. Barron inject at least some humor
Storyteller Knight
There is a disturbing lack of humor in this series
There is a disturbing lack of humor in this series
SamoaPhoenix
T.A. Barron doesn't have a lot of humor but he does write some slapstick in there
Characters tripping over things and playing pranks on each other and stuff
T.A. Barron doesn't have a lot of humor but he does write some slapstick in there
Characters tripping over things and playing pranks on each other and stuff
Storyteller Knight
So, it's becoming clear that we don't really have anything to say about this book beyond we liked it but it was problematic because we keep talking about other books.
So, it's becoming clear that we don't really have anything to say about this book beyond we liked it but it was problematic because we keep talking about other books.
SamoaPhoenix
Yes
It will be interesting to see what's different about Prince and the Pilgrim because it was written so much later
Yes
It will be interesting to see what's different about Prince and the Pilgrim because it was written so much later
I can see the difference between Wicked Day and Crystal Cave, and
they're about a decade apart
Storyteller Knight
It will be interesting too because that will be more of Stewart's own invention than this series because there's not really much to the story of Alexander.
It will be interesting too because that will be more of Stewart's own invention than this series because there's not really much to the story of Alexander.
SamoaPhoenix
So at least we won't have any more gaffes like getting to the end of the series and wishing she hadn't set it up the way she had
So at least we won't have any more gaffes like getting to the end of the series and wishing she hadn't set it up the way she had
Storyteller Knight
Yes. Please note future authors, it's really important to know the legend inside and out before writing a bestselling series.
Yes. Please note future authors, it's really important to know the legend inside and out before writing a bestselling series.
SamoaPhoenix
Not getting to the end and going "Wait, I didn't want to make him evil!"
Not getting to the end and going "Wait, I didn't want to make him evil!"
Storyteller Knight
Or “that doesn't make any sense... wait, do I have to follow it?”
Or “that doesn't make any sense... wait, do I have to follow it?”
SamoaPhoenix
Of course our answer would be: "no, you don't!" But we've read way more retellings that really take...liberties with the legend.
Of course our answer would be: "no, you don't!" But we've read way more retellings that really take...liberties with the legend.
Storyteller Knight
I think she built up fate as this all important thing and couldn't conceive spitting in the face of her all-important fate
I think she built up fate as this all important thing and couldn't conceive spitting in the face of her all-important fate
SamoaPhoenix
Since that was basically all Merlin lived for. If you shattered that prophecy, you'd have to have Merlin/Nimue drop dead
Since that was basically all Merlin lived for. If you shattered that prophecy, you'd have to have Merlin/Nimue drop dead
Storyteller Knight
I would be sad about Nimue. At least she sorta tried.
I would be sad about Nimue. At least she sorta tried.
SamoaPhoenix
I liked her
I liked her
Storyteller Knight
Nimue was the best when she wasn't sleeping with Merlin
Nimue was the best when she wasn't sleeping with Merlin
SamoaPhoenix
Yes, once she developed a life of her own
Yes, once she developed a life of her own
Storyteller Knight
Well, final thoughts?
Well, final thoughts?
SamoaPhoenix
Best of the series so far.
Best of the series so far.
Storyteller Knight
Definitely. And I love Mordred.
Definitely. And I love Mordred.
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